Instead of group postings for our discussions on Oedipus the King, we're going to speed things up a little by having only individual comments. Each person still needs to leave at least four comments on this discussion, both in reply to the original topics and to other students.
(1) To what degree is Oedipus responsible for his own actions? Is he completely a victim of fate, partially a victim of fate, or completely responsible for his own destiny? Is there anything he could have done to escape his fate?
(2) What are the differences (or similarities) between a tragic hero and an epic hero, and how do we see those differences in Oedipus and Odysseus?
(3) What are the differences (or similarities) between the way the ancient Greeks viewed fate and the way that Western culture today views it? How can we see these differences in comparing things like the story of Oedipus to more recent stories like the movie Minority Report?
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I think Oedipus is partially a victim of his own fate. I think that in the story the prophet knew what was going to happen to Oedipus, he knew his father would try to kill him and Oedipus would survive and come back to kill his father and marry his mother. I think maybe if the prophet would not of told Oedipus father what was to come maybe the outcome of the story would have been much different or maybe it would not have been. If his father did die he would still have been the heir to the throne since he was the kings son.
I think an epic hero and a tragic hero have many similarities. They are both praises by the common people and they also interact with the gods. They are determined, proud, and hardheaded! They want their way or no way. I think Odysseus was a stronger more interesting character than Oedipus. A major difference is an epic hero normally survives and a tragic hero either dies or the story does not have a happy ending.
Ancient Greeks and Western culture view faith very much the same way. A person’s faith is hard to talk about because a person makes choices yet those choices they made could all be a part of the person’s faith. I once read a book called “These is my words” and the author said that “life is like a road with nooks and curves and taking a curve means we can never go back, we can never undo the steps we have taking or the actions we have done.”
Oedipus could not control his own fate. He did not know the man that he had killed was his father at the time and he did not know that his wife was his mother. i think that it was wrong for them to set him up the way that they did.
i think that the epic heros always win at the end you can pretty much figure out how the story is going to end. but a tragic hero is always at the lowest point of his lfe so they always lose.
Ancient greeks and western cultures faith are about the same. back then it was hard to control your fate but these days it is not.
I think that Oeipus is partially a victim of his own fate. I know that he had no idea that he was killing his father, but he shouldn't have killed anyone anyway, especially if he didn't know who he was. Also, he could have been a little more careful about who he married. He shouldn't have married someone as old a Jocasta was. If he would never have ran away from his home and who he thought was his parents, nothing would have happened and the prophecy would not have been fulfilled. He was so worried about changing his destiny that he actually messed it up. I think that he was partially a victim of his own fate because he didn't know that the Laius was his father and Jocasta was his mother. He also didn't know that he was given away at birth and that the people who he thought was his parents really weren't.
I think that oepidus is a victim of his own fate. I mean i do not think that if oepidus knew who is actual father was that he would have went the direction he did. i do not think that he had any idea who his father really was. there is that pert of me that wants to say that he could have controlled his fate. when the guy at the party shouted out that his father wasn't really his father, if oepidus would have investigated it then he would have fount out that person was telling the truth. nevertheless he chose not to and that is the reason he ended up the way he did.
Oedipus was a victim of his own fate. He shouldn't have been killing a man in the first place. He knew the prophecy, so he could have stayed with his so-called "father" and still not have killed him. Although, that gets into the different views of fate.
Like the movie "Minority Report," everyone has a choice. You can choose to kill or not. The deal with the movie was that they left nothing to fate. If a person thought of a crime, the police thought they would commit it; however, at the end of the movie, Tom Cruise's character doesn't kill like he is supposed to. It just proves that there is free will and choices to be made.
Epic and tragic heroes are both closely knit with the gods. The heroes are in communication with them or on a quest set out by them. However, epic heroes come out on top and the tragic heroes end up dying or being shunned by the people. Odysseus was a far stronger, more notable character than Oedipus. I wouldn't say, however, that Odysseus was more interesting. Oedipus had a lot going on..gross..
I think that Oedipus is partially responsible for his own fate because of his anger. If he hadn't cursed the murderer infront of everyone, then his life wouldn't have ended up so miserable. If he had just tried to search for the killer on his own, without involving everyone else, then he would have eventually found out on his own that he did it and thats all he would have had to live with. Also, if he would have just delt with it at his new home and never left, then he wouldn't have fulfilled the prophecy. However, there were many things that he could not control that determined his fate. He had no control over the sheppard not killing him or the drunk man telling him the prophecy. He had no control of knowing who his parents really were because everyone had lied to him.
A tragic hero and an epic hero are very much alike. They are both larger than life and fight some kind of battle in the story. However, the ending of the story is the difference. A tragic hero ends up getting hurt, or losing, or even dieing. An epic hero wins the battle and lives happily ever after.
The ancient Greeks viewed fate by people cursing them or prophets. Today, most people view fate as what God has planned for them in their life.
In some ways Oedipus is responsible for his own actions, becaus we are given free will and he decided to kill that man. In other ways he could not control the fact that he was suppose to kill his father and marry his mother because it was planned for him.
The difference between an epic hero and a tragic hero is that in the end of one of them something bad happens. For a tragic hero they never semm to get a happy ending. In the time of the ancient Greeks they believed that what some one said was what was going to happen regardless of what you believe. In Western culture we believe that you can change how something comes out. You have the choice to decide what you want to do with your life. No body can make you do something that you don't want to do.
Curtis,
I have to disagree with you, think that Oedipus was partially a victum of him on faith because he did choose to leave his home.
Kristin,
I also think that Oedipus should of investigated farther to find out if his parents where really his parents. But, i do see where he is coming from to just believe his parents and not cause any pain in their family.
Stacy,
I completely agree with you! I think he should of just stayed and not ran away from his fears like a coward because doing so made him end up much worst. But you never know if he did stay he could have later on ran into his father and killed him and married his mother fillfulling the prophecy.
Kyle,
I have not seen the movie but im glad you explained it. I think he should not of killed the man either and he would of had nothing to worry about.
Odeipus is totally responsible for his own actions. However, he is not responsible for the curse of the gods. He could have chosen to stay with his parents in Corinth with the knowledge of the curse and dealth with it in appropriate manner. I think he would have had some protection just in the knowledge of the curse.
The tragice hero always fails at the end and the epic hero always prevails in the end. The heros are also superhuman or larger than life.
Ancient Greeks viewed fate as the way it is supposed to be and there was no changing it. We view fate as something we have in our control. We are all responsible for our own actions aand so our fate.
To Stacy - I agree his anger was his downfall and his pride. His boasting and anger led his in the wrong direction instead he should have investigated first then pronounced the sentence.
To Jan - I agree we all have free will and it was his choice to leave his home and to kill the king. another mistake he made was letting them appoint him king. His pride got the better of him in more ways than one.
To Kristen - Yes he is a victim and he should have investigated who his real parents were instead of leaving his home out of fear. He should have had more confidence in himself.
To Krista W - Yes he was so worried about messing up his destiny that he actually made it alot worse. His pride, ego, and anger all worked against him. If he had been a little more like Odeysseus he could have thought through his problems .
I think that Oedipus is a victim of his own fate. I agree that he should not have been killing a man in the first place,but he didn't have to listen to the prophecies either. The prophecies just create the story for the characters.
The tragic hero and the epic hero have many similarities but many differences. They are both the main characters of the stories, both interact with the gods, and are praised by the people around them. They are determined and strong. Some differences is that the tragic hero always has a bad ending. The epic hero usually has a happy and exciting ending. They become the "hero".
The Ancient Greeks and Western Culture veiw faith in the same ways. Back then, people went by the prophecies. Today we go by what God has planned for us.
Oedipus had no way of knowing that he was going to murder his father and marry his mother. True, he was told of the prophesy, but he tried to change it. He moved away from home to try and escape the prophesy thinking the people who raised him were his true parents. How was he to know that he was not raised by his real parents? The family who raised him never told him! Therefore, I think he is a victim of fate. I do not believe he was responsible for his own destiny.
A tragic hero is someone whose journey or life ends in a downfall. An epic hero usually prevails.
Oedipus was a tragic hero. When he found out that he was the murderer of Laius and married his own mother, he poked his eyes out with Jocasta's brooch. Then, he banned himself from the city.
Odysseus was an epic hero. He tried his hardest to get back to his wife Penelope. He had many ups and downs along his journey, and thought he would never get back to her. Then, as an epic hero does, Odysseus prevailed! He made his way back home to his wife and son.
Ancient Greeks believed one's fate could not be changed. It was set.
Today, people believe that one's fate can be changed (the concept of free will).
To Erica:
Yes, Oedipus did choose to leave home. BUT he thought the people who raised him were his real parents. He had no way of knowing that they were NOT his real parents. They never told him.
To Curtis:
I agree with you in the fact that Oedipus was a complete victim of fate. He did not know that Laius was his real father.
To Kristin and CherylJ:
I agree with you that Oedipus should have investigated it. He really should have investigated it before he made the sentence because he sentenced himself.
I think that Oedipus is partially a victim of his own fate. I believe this because I personally believe in fate, but I also think that you can control your own fate.
The main difference, in my opinion, is that epic hero always comes out "smelling like roses," while on the other hand the tragic hero comes out being the "dirt the roses were planted in." The only drawback to the epic hero is that you can usually figure out how it will end.
One main difference between how the ancient Greeks viewed fate and how we today view fate is that when we think of fate we think "this is what God has in store for me," however the way the Greeks viewed it as somewhat different. In every case that I've come across it seems that they always associated fate with some sort of curse or prophecy.
To Sarah:
I agree with you in the fact that Oedipus had no way of knowing that he was going to murder his father and marry his mother. Bad luck I guess.
To Stacy:
I agree with you that he had no control of knowing who his parents really were because everyone had lied to him. I think this plays a huge role in the outcome of the story.
To Krista:
I agree with you in that he had no idea that he was killing his father. You are also correct in stating that he shouldn't have been killing anybody in the first place.
Yes, I also agree that he was so worried about his destiny that he just made it alot worse. He didn't have to listen to the prophecies. If he loved his father in the first place, then why kill him?
I think his "parents" should have told him that they weren't his biological parents. It is never a good thing to keep something like that as a secret. He deserved the right to know who his real parents were.
Oedipus just has really bad luck. Why would he marry someone old enough to be his mother any how?
zb1)Was Oedipus a victim of fate or completely responsible for his own actions?
Hard to say. I don't think he was entirely to blame for what happened. Even though his own actions precipitated his ruin, every incident seemed to be accidental - chance, bad luck, whatever you want to call it. The only real crime I can see he committed was to kill a stranger on the road (and the whole party, if I read correctly). All in all, its really hard to pin the blame on any one of the characters.
I think it may have explained in the story or in the introduction that prophecy does not form or create the future, but rather foretells what will happen. So, no, I don't think Oedipus could've escaped his fate - if the prophecy was to be true. Can the future really be changed any more than the past?
3)What are the differences between the way the ancient Greeks viewed fate and the way modern Western culture views fate?
In some ways I think today we consider ourselves to be in charge of our own fate. For example, the "American Dream": you can be anything, go anywhere if you only work hard enough. You choose your own life.
In contrast, though, Western society is still influenced strongly by its religious roots. Our future and even our entire lives is still believed, to a large extent, to be directed and orchestrated by a higher power. Therefore, it cannot be changed. But our lives and our future are still determined by our own choices.
To erica: Yes, it would seem that if the prophet had kept his mouth shut, none of this would've happened. It would seem that our actions of the present do shape the future. But then the prophet, out his love for his king, may have been trying to save him some grief. In the end it seems he's the one that set everything into action. Hard to tell what caused what, or if it could've been avoided.
To Brian: I like the comparison of heroes to roses (and to dirt)! As far as fate is concerned, it does seem that in some ways we are responsible for our own fate, while we have no control over other aspects: such as sickness, tragedy, difficulties in life, and death.
curtis.. I see where you are coming from but I still think Oedipus could control his own fate. He made the choice to leave and he cursed the killer.
To Cheryl.. I completely agree with you. If he would have just stayed at his home and just not have killed anyone, then he would have been just fine.
To kyle.. I am very glad you explained the movie. I'll have to go watch it now because it sounds very interesting. I do believe that people make their own choices and fate plays some part of it but not all.
I think that Oedipus is partially of victim of his own fate. Although it was said that it was his fate to kill his father and to marry his mother, he did not know that the man he was killing was his father nor that he was soon going to marry his mother. I do think that it could have been prevented if he would have been able to control his temper and not killing an innocent man over something as little as "road rage" and at some point i think that with knowing the prophet of his fate, he should have kind of put two and two together. I think that he should of been cautious of what his actions were so that the prophet would not have had a chance to come true. He did not know that his parents were not his blood parents, but i just believe that he should have been very careful of how he lived his life, but he chose to kill someone knowing nothing of the situation and making the prophet come true.
To Lindsey:
I agree with you that he was so worried about what it was prophesized about his fate that he didn't focus on what he was doing or his actions. He made things worse by leaving home and actually made his destiny come true by trying to avoid it in the first place.
Stacy,
I agree that he should have not ran from his problems and rather just faced them because all he did in trying to run from them was make the prophecy come true. I also think that his parents should have told him that they were not his birth parents, therefore he would have not been so paranoid about it all and would have just stayed with them.
Krista,
You are right that Oedipus had no right to kill anyone! I just think he should of been more careful of what he did because the prophesy said he would murder his father so why kill any one ya know??
Kristin,
I think that Oedipus should have thought things through more and investigated so that he knew the facts and made no mistake to making or letting the prophesy come true. It seems he was doomed from the beginning!
I think that the difference in epic and tragic hero is that in a tragedy the hero is doomed from the beginning and there is no way of changing his fate, but in a epic there are conditions and terms to his fate and to what happens to him throughout the epic. Like in the Oddyssey, Odysseus' problems were caused by his own actions and he was given a chance to change and correct them. On the other hand, old Oedipus had no hope whatsoever. He was cursed before he was born, and there was absolutely nothing that she could do about it. No matter how he tried to avoid and run away from his curse it still defeated him in the end.
Kristin,
I disagree, I don't think Oedipus could have changed his fate at anytime in the story. I do think that if he had not run away it would have saved him the time of sleeping with his own mother!ew!
Stacy,
I agree with you and then I don't. I think that if he had not tried to run in the beginning then there would have never been a murder and as I said before he wouldn't be considered a brother-dad.
Janna,
I agree with you totally, had he sat at home and just let fate take his course he would have endured a little less of the things that he put himself through.
I do not think it was Oedipus fault that his true idenity was not revealed. If his parents would have been more honest about hte situation then some things could have been prevented.Oedipus was unaware of every thing he spoke about.
I do not think it was Oedipus fault that his true idenity was not revealed. If his parents would have been more honest about hte situation then some things could have been prevented.Oedipus was unaware of every thing he spoke about.
Kyle,
I agree that Oedipus was a victim of his own fate but he was not aware that he was setting his self up. I loved the movie " Minority Report".
Sarah S.,
I totally agree with you on the issue that Oedipus was not entirely to blame for what happen to him.
Robin B.,
I agree with you too on the issue that Oedipus was not totally responsible for what happen to him even though you are responsible for your own actions.
To Tracy...
I agree with you. He should have been much more careful. I mean, the prophet said that he would kill his father, he really should have been careful about killing someone. I know that he had no idea that he was his father though so I don't think that he is somewhat a victim of his own fate.
Curtis...
I agree with you to an extent. He really had no clue that he man he killed was he real father. I just think that he should not have killed anyone in the first place.
Lindsey...
I agree that he should not have listened to the prophets. He also should have not killed anyone in the first place.
I think Oedipus is completely responsible for his fate. He knew of the prophecy that he would kill his father and marry his mother. With this in mind, I do believe he should have been way more cautious and not killed an innocent man. This is why I think he is responsible for his fate.
An epic hero and a tragic hero have many similarities and differences. Epic heroes and tragic heroes both are looked at almost as a type of god. They are praised by there people and they get almost everything they want. The main differences between them are that they have different endings. An epic hero always gets put through a lot, but in the end the outcome is always a positive one. He always comes out on the good end of the deal. A tragic hero often looked at as the "anti hero" always end up with a bad ending. No matter how hard a tragic hero tries to avoid bad things he always end up with a negative outcome.
Western culture and Ancient Greeks view fate in many similiar and different ways. Similiar ways fate is viewed deal with how a higher power can control what happens in someone's life. I don't believe we actually control every sspect of our own lives. A difference in the beliefs in fate includes how the Ancient Greeks believed in more than one god that could control fate; whereas, western culture like today believes mostly in only a single god.
Reply to Daisy:
I agree, for the most part he Oedipus was doomed from the beginning. On the other hand I do think that if he could have only controlled his temper and not killed an innocent man, he would have not seen killed his father.
Reply to Erica:
I think you had a very good answer to all the questions. I agreed with you on the most part. You gave good reasons and explanations.
Reply to Curtis:
I definitely disagree with you on this. He was had control of his own fate, he just did not choose to change it.
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